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2000 KOBE BRYANT #KB UPPER DECK PROS & PROSPECTS SIGNATURE JERSEYS - Base
Reported as Possibly: ALTERED
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Opinion(s)
December 10, 2022 • BGS 9.5 cert# 0010407426 • BlowOut →
Default 'Buyer beware' SCP Auctions (Kobe Pros & Prospects auto jersey with a patch...)
On Wednesday (my time) I received an email from SCP Auctions telling me about their current auction 'Bid on Kobe, Jordan, Russell and More and SCP Auctions!'.
In this newsletter of sorts it had an item that stood out to me, a 2000 Upper Deck Pros & Prospects Signature Jerseys #KB Kobe Bryant - BGS GEM MINT 9.5, 10 Auto. I replied to this email in my usual arrogant way, laughing at them for having no expertise in the basketball card market for letting this run. Because the set Signature JERSEYS did not have patches in it, they were later faked by unscrupulous people wanting to make money.
I have the link to the pic but it won't show, so is attached.
I received a reply from Brendan Wells, with VP in his signature, telling me:
"Here’s the card in Beckett’s database.
Beckett →
If you have an issue with a card that Beckett, PSA or SGC authenticated, maybe you should take it up with the grading company and not the auction house. We deal with hundreds of consignors and thousands of items each auction. Not our job to police a major card grader’s decision when the card in their registry as genuine. For you to question our expertise over something like this, you’re barking up the wrong tree.
We have more basketball expertise in this building than any other auction house. Been at it longer than anyone, too (Goldin, HA, etc.). Our true clients know this. Show some respect."
This was even more amusing. I replied telling him that anybody who has been in the hobby more than ten minutes knows this is fake, and that grading companies grade the card regardless of the patch. I even attached a photo of a card of mine from this set, with a jersey piece in it.......
His reply to that:
"Just curious, have you ever reached out to Upper Deck to inquire if they only used mesh jersey swatches for these cards? The terminology “jersey” was more generic in the early days (circa 2000) of the G/U swatch card market. It took a few years before “patch” became the standard term for multicolor tackle twill pieces of a jersey’s letters, numbers or embroidered logos. Now it’s dialed in with “dual-color”, “tri-color” etc.
I worked at UD from 2010-2013 and still know a few folks on the product side over there. I’ll reach out about it.
Still think you’re being quite harsh for calling out our expertise over this. You have no idea how much work it is to run a multimillion-dollar auction several times a year. We don’t have 100+ employees here. It’s a small team. You’d hope the grading companies could be competent enough to catch stuff like this so us marketplaces wouldn’t have to spend hours investigating every single slabbed card in genuine holders to the nth degree. Guess that’s asking too much of them. 😊"
I went back to him with my knowledge that a jersey card was a jersey card and when patch cards were introduced they were called patch cards, and that this was a known set to be faked. I told him it should be taken down.
The next reply was his speculation that just one random patch might have been put in these cards to justify them selling it:
"I can tell you from working at Upper Deck, though, that it wouldn’t surprise me if a few times they just slipped in a patch out of the blue and didn’t think anything of it…like if they were short on solid color jersey pieces and didn’t have another jersey to chop up. There was no thinking about protecting the integrity of the future of the jersey card sector of the hobby in 2000. Not at UD or any trading card company. These card products were so new at the turn of the millennium. So much shady stuff went on back then. So many products were backdoored. By the time I got there in 2010, I had heard it all.
Not saying you are wrong and there aren’t shady characters taking advantage of products like this replacing with different patches or other shenanigans. But that just seems like a zero-sum gain even for a fraudster. Too high risk and low reward for a card like this. How much more could a patch be worth than a mesh jersey if the card isn’t even crash numbered?"
I replied showing him everything on 130point, ALLLLLLL plain purple JERSEYS....
I received a response today. They aren't pulling it and they are leaving it to the buyers to know better...
"I spoke with a former colleague at Upper Deck. According to the PDT (Product Development Team), it is too long ago to verify if there were any variations of swatches embedded in the 2000 UD Prospects & Pros Signature Jerseys subset. He agreed that there really was no standard or patented terminology for jersey “swatch” vs. “patch” at such an early point in the mem card era and that it is possible that UD used 1/2-inch pieces off a player jersey without distinguishing between the two types. I think UD started making swatch cards around 1996-97.
Obviously, without the cards being crash numbered, it’s impossible to know how many, if any, patches would made it into the product. The ratio would have been far more of the straight mesh/knit color (200 : 1 or something) based on how few multicolor patch pieces yield from a jersey.
Bottom line is we are not an authenticator. It’s not our place to police a grading decision made by one of the four grading companies accepted by all auction houses. Maybe you’re right and BGS screwed up. If Beckett was wrong here, that’s on them. Bidders can do their own homework. If they are unsure or not confident in the item, they should not bid.
So while I appreciate your concern on this card, we will not be withdrawing it."
I find this to be quite a pathetic response, and have told them so. Especially since I already addressed their fallback earlier. Apparently these guys operate like PWCC, they don't care about right and wrong, and since it's graded then it must be ok....
Everybody knows these only had jersey pieces in them. The likelihood that a random card in the production had a patch piece in it, and that it has been graded so must be ok as justification for not taking it down.... please.
There's also a tiny bit of damage to the top of the jersey window on the card
Do yourself a favour and avoid this card, and any that don't contain a jersey piece.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version
Name: Kobe patch.jpg
Views: 78
Size: 11.3 KB
ID: 531453 Click image for larger version
Name: 53050a_med.jpg
Views: 170
Size: 10.9 KB
ID: 531454
hairyangryfella is offline Report Post Reply With Quote
Default 'Buyer beware' SCP Auctions (Kobe Pros & Prospects auto jersey with a patch...)
On Wednesday (my time) I received an email from SCP Auctions telling me about their current auction 'Bid on Kobe, Jordan, Russell and More and SCP Auctions!'.
In this newsletter of sorts it had an item that stood out to me, a 2000 Upper Deck Pros & Prospects Signature Jerseys #KB Kobe Bryant - BGS GEM MINT 9.5, 10 Auto. I replied to this email in my usual arrogant way, laughing at them for having no expertise in the basketball card market for letting this run. Because the set Signature JERSEYS did not have patches in it, they were later faked by unscrupulous people wanting to make money.
I have the link to the pic but it won't show, so is attached.
I received a reply from Brendan Wells, with VP in his signature, telling me:
"Here’s the card in Beckett’s database.
Beckett →
If you have an issue with a card that Beckett, PSA or SGC authenticated, maybe you should take it up with the grading company and not the auction house. We deal with hundreds of consignors and thousands of items each auction. Not our job to police a major card grader’s decision when the card in their registry as genuine. For you to question our expertise over something like this, you’re barking up the wrong tree.
We have more basketball expertise in this building than any other auction house. Been at it longer than anyone, too (Goldin, HA, etc.). Our true clients know this. Show some respect."
This was even more amusing. I replied telling him that anybody who has been in the hobby more than ten minutes knows this is fake, and that grading companies grade the card regardless of the patch. I even attached a photo of a card of mine from this set, with a jersey piece in it.......
His reply to that:
"Just curious, have you ever reached out to Upper Deck to inquire if they only used mesh jersey swatches for these cards? The terminology “jersey” was more generic in the early days (circa 2000) of the G/U swatch card market. It took a few years before “patch” became the standard term for multicolor tackle twill pieces of a jersey’s letters, numbers or embroidered logos. Now it’s dialed in with “dual-color”, “tri-color” etc.
I worked at UD from 2010-2013 and still know a few folks on the product side over there. I’ll reach out about it.
Still think you’re being quite harsh for calling out our expertise over this. You have no idea how much work it is to run a multimillion-dollar auction several times a year. We don’t have 100+ employees here. It’s a small team. You’d hope the grading companies could be competent enough to catch stuff like this so us marketplaces wouldn’t have to spend hours investigating every single slabbed card in genuine holders to the nth degree. Guess that’s asking too much of them. 😊"
I went back to him with my knowledge that a jersey card was a jersey card and when patch cards were introduced they were called patch cards, and that this was a known set to be faked. I told him it should be taken down.
The next reply was his speculation that just one random patch might have been put in these cards to justify them selling it:
"I can tell you from working at Upper Deck, though, that it wouldn’t surprise me if a few times they just slipped in a patch out of the blue and didn’t think anything of it…like if they were short on solid color jersey pieces and didn’t have another jersey to chop up. There was no thinking about protecting the integrity of the future of the jersey card sector of the hobby in 2000. Not at UD or any trading card company. These card products were so new at the turn of the millennium. So much shady stuff went on back then. So many products were backdoored. By the time I got there in 2010, I had heard it all.
Not saying you are wrong and there aren’t shady characters taking advantage of products like this replacing with different patches or other shenanigans. But that just seems like a zero-sum gain even for a fraudster. Too high risk and low reward for a card like this. How much more could a patch be worth than a mesh jersey if the card isn’t even crash numbered?"
I replied showing him everything on 130point, ALLLLLLL plain purple JERSEYS....
I received a response today. They aren't pulling it and they are leaving it to the buyers to know better...
"I spoke with a former colleague at Upper Deck. According to the PDT (Product Development Team), it is too long ago to verify if there were any variations of swatches embedded in the 2000 UD Prospects & Pros Signature Jerseys subset. He agreed that there really was no standard or patented terminology for jersey “swatch” vs. “patch” at such an early point in the mem card era and that it is possible that UD used 1/2-inch pieces off a player jersey without distinguishing between the two types. I think UD started making swatch cards around 1996-97.
Obviously, without the cards being crash numbered, it’s impossible to know how many, if any, patches would made it into the product. The ratio would have been far more of the straight mesh/knit color (200 : 1 or something) based on how few multicolor patch pieces yield from a jersey.
Bottom line is we are not an authenticator. It’s not our place to police a grading decision made by one of the four grading companies accepted by all auction houses. Maybe you’re right and BGS screwed up. If Beckett was wrong here, that’s on them. Bidders can do their own homework. If they are unsure or not confident in the item, they should not bid.
So while I appreciate your concern on this card, we will not be withdrawing it."
I find this to be quite a pathetic response, and have told them so. Especially since I already addressed their fallback earlier. Apparently these guys operate like PWCC, they don't care about right and wrong, and since it's graded then it must be ok....
Everybody knows these only had jersey pieces in them. The likelihood that a random card in the production had a patch piece in it, and that it has been graded so must be ok as justification for not taking it down.... please.
There's also a tiny bit of damage to the top of the jersey window on the card
Do yourself a favour and avoid this card, and any that don't contain a jersey piece.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version
Name: Kobe patch.jpg
Views: 78
Size: 11.3 KB
ID: 531453 Click image for larger version
Name: 53050a_med.jpg
Views: 170
Size: 10.9 KB
ID: 531454
hairyangryfella is offline Report Post Reply With Quote
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